Curse

Byron · Feb 24, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

So I've done some exploring in Random Arenas is hopes of finding a more powerful warrior than the gale-axe or hammer-chain kings of today. I've come up with a couple possibilities:
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W/Mo: 10 Smiting, 10+4 Hammer mastery
vs. 60 armor

Backbreaker + Crushing Blow + Holy strike + Hammer bash + hit
(40-80 + 3 sec knockdown) + (50-80 + deep wound) + (80) + (30-60)

Results in a minimum damage output of 300, the deep wound included. There are, however, problems here besides the usual warrior hate: it takes 10 adrenaline to get backbreaker up. "To the Limit!" or "For Great Justice!" helps, but your still gonna have to get a few hits in. When adrenaline is in short supply, a hammer bash + crushing blow will put out some decent damage.
Then there is the issue of monk defense. Guardian and Prot Spirit can foil this combo in a hurry, as can a RoF before your back-breaker; a smart monk will keep up prot spirit and/or guardian when he sees a hammer warrior coming.
But for non-monks, the combo is terrific. It'll put down the smart-ass vampire necros in a hurry, and degen builds stand no chance.
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Second combo, same build warrior:

Devestating hammer+ Crushing blow + Heavy blow + Holy strike
(30-60) + (50-80 + deep wound) + (60-90) + (80)

Results in about the same damage output, but is less demanding on adrenaline. The problem is, the combo relies on weakness, and with a devestating hammer miss, the rest of the combo is a waste of energy. This is also pretty close to the typical chain of devestating/crushing/heavy/irresistable.
So why holy strike? Its dedicated damage: it will put 80 damage on any knockdown enemy, regardless of class or what stance they are in, and deals even more damage to certain armors of necros. It's also a huge hurt when used after a deep wound attack. Irresistable blow also always hits, yes, but to a warrior with glads armor and absorbtion, it still won't put out much damage. The aim is power and versatility.
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I've also been thinking on a scourge warrior for pure anti-monk:

Scourge healing + Devestating hammer + Crushing blow + heavy blow + hit

Does scourge work when they are healing themselves? If so, I think this build would be an amazing healer-take down, and work well for spreading out damage when attacking other classes.
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So what are the thoughts? I'm trying to find the most versatile combo, and I'm pretty sure hammer attacks are the answer. I'm happy to entertain criticism and other combos of any class.

rii · Feb 24, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

It works when they heal themselves.

Divineshadows · Feb 24, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I like the backbreaker and hammer bash combination better. I think if you could fit Irresistable Blow in it would help you more than To The Limit or For Great Justice. The extra knockdown means more shutdown and being able to hit through guardian and distortion helps you build adrenaline.

Scourge Healing is prohibitive for a warrior both in terms of energy (10 energy on a 5 second recharge) and in terms of time duty (2 seconds casting is time you're not attacking). In addition, I am about 99% certain that Divine Boon with protection skills does not trigger Scourge Healing. Also, 100% certain that the divine favor bonus and protection spells in general do not trigger Scourge Healing. I would recommend Smite Hex instead to:

A). Help your teammates. They put backfire on your mesmer...no problem. Or they hexed up your monk after removing all his enchants...no problem.
B). Help yourself. Faintheartedness, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow of Fear, Spirit Shackles, Spirit of Failure, Price of Failure...no problem.
C). Do damage to the foes. Be opportunistic if possible by hitting as many as possible with the AoE armor-ignoring damage. Serves em right for using hexes. Using smite hex to its fullest would require the warrior to pay more attention to relative positioning of foes and allies and paying attention to the party window.

I assume some of the skills you have not listed are an IAS stance (probably Frenzy), a speed stance (Sprint or Rush), and a rez sig.

tigernz · Feb 24, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I'm currently using

16 hammer, 10 smiting, rest in strength

Frenzy
Sprint
Devastating {E}
Crushing
Heavy
Irresistable
Holy Strike
Res Sig

Works really well and will kill most targets in one combo.

I'd love to fit in warriors cunning somewhere for those boon protters & their neverending Guardians, but not sure what I'd drop...

taxed · Feb 24, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Yeap, been using this build for quite some time.

Devistating Hammer
Crushing blow
Mighty blow
Holy strike
Irrestable blow
Sprint
Strength of Honor
Rez signet

Note 1: The combo involving heavy blow does a lot more damage, for less adrenaline. Devistating hammer pretty much always hits.

Note 2: Sprint is the better skill to bring, as you can charge adrenaline, then sprint to a squishie (monk if one is there) for an insta kill.

Note 3: ALWAYS use strength of honor here as it is a great trigger for the +15% damage while enchanted mod. (hint: combo will average close to 500 damage like this)

I use this build specifically for monk hunting. It is very rare indeed when a monk can survive this chain with no healing support from anywhere.

Byron · Feb 24, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Scourge Healing is prohibitive for a warrior both in terms of energy (10 energy on a 5 second recharge) and in terms of time duty (2 seconds casting is time you're not attacking). In addition, I am about 99% certain that Divine Boon with protection skills does not trigger Scourge Healing. Also, 100% certain that the divine favor bonus and protection spells in general do not trigger Scourge Healing. I would recommend Smite Hex instead to:

A). Help your teammates. They put backfire on your mesmer...no problem. Or they hexed up your monk after removing all his enchants...no problem.
B). Help yourself. Faintheartedness, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow of Fear, Spirit Shackles, Spirit of Failure, Price of Failure...no problem.
C). Do damage to the foes. Be opportunistic if possible by hitting as many as possible with the AoE armor-ignoring damage. Serves em right for using hexes. Using smite hex to its fullest would require the warrior to pay more attention to relative positioning of foes and allies and paying attention to the party window.

I assume some of the skills you have not listed are an IAS stance (probably Frenzy), a speed stance (Sprint or Rush), and a rez sig.

Thanks, chief. The scourge is probably useless if divine healing and/or boon prot doesnt trigger it.
As for the 4 non-combo skills, i've tampered with them:
Adrenaline shout/rush/heal sig/ res sig
smite hex/rush/heal sig/res sig
rush/strength of honor/heal sig/res sig
frenzy/rush/heal sig/res sig

->I like the first one best for Randoms, but the last one is probably best for 8v8.

->Sprint seems to put another energy hamper on an already energy demanding smite-build, so I'd say no sprint, especially if your running smite hex.

audioaxes · Feb 24, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigernz

I'm currently using

16 hammer, 10 smiting, rest in strength

Frenzy
Sprint
Devastating {E}
Crushing
Heavy
Irresistable
Holy Strike
Res Sig

Works really well and will kill most targets in one combo.

I'd love to fit in warriors cunning somewhere for those boon protters & their neverending Guardians, but not sure what I'd drop...

why not take out holy strike?
energy is at a premium for hammer warriors so mighty blow being addrenaline based works out just fine and its damage can easily exceed that of holy strike on a caster target
it also works out perfectly because your adrenaline is going to drain from heavy so why not cap it off with a final adrenaline hit without it counting against you

now you have a just as deadly spike and get to use frenzy/irresistable more often since you are more energy efficient

16 hammer
13 str

frenzy
sprint
irresistable
devastating
crushing
mighty
heavy
res

devastating->crushing->mighty->heavy->irresistable = dead target from full health

taxed · Feb 24, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

The reason for the holy strike is for the extra 80 damage. The whole purpose of this build in 4v4 is to kill the opps monk. Without that 80 damage, it fails to kill.

I don't like frenzy with the build because it acually breaks the chain. It's too fast hit the chain in successive hits, and too slow to get two hits on the kd. It allows for the monk to heal himself, thus no kill.

The combination that you are using is also quite adrenaline heavy, and allows the target to get up for a quick RoF or healing touch heal, thus no kill.

The combination of skills that I am using is easily sustainable for me (even with strength of honor active) and allows for 3 full spike sequences before having energy problems. Normally that amounts to 3 kills. Deadly in 4v4, not so much in 8v8.

I do think this build can be used effectively in 8v8 though. Imagine this:

2 w/m hammer/holy strike warriors
3 ranger spikers
1 necro - order of pain+rend enchant+rigor+ss
2 boon prots

Now when the w/m calls their adrenaline spike, the rangers pick a third target to hit up. Now, in a 2 boon/prot backline, they are both dead and normally the ranger spike should be able to kill off a third (ouch). In a 3 monk backline, the 3rd monk must choose which 2 players are going to die.

SaintGreg · Feb 24, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I wouldn't take heavy just because if they remove the weakness you're spike chain fails, which is very bad. It might not happen very often, but it can happen. I've never had a problem taking out a monk in 4v4 with:

hammer: 16 (or 15 with HoD)
tactics: 9
strength 11

Backbreaker {E}
Crushing Blow
Mighty Blow
Irresistable Blow
Frenzy
Rush
Healing Signet
Resurrection Signet

You can keep up rush and just critical on them if they are running way. If they have guardian, you can just irresistable blow to build adrenaline. Once you are at full adrenaline you should be able to pick a spot where the monk will not have guardian up, has less than ~80% health, and then you can start your chain. It is tough with distortion because you can't spike them, but it still gets the job done more often than not.

taxed · Feb 24, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

True, the weakness is an important factor, but the weakness cannot be removed if the lone monk is on their back. The damage chain that I am using does not allow a single cast. I cannot count the number of healing touches, RoF's and mend aiments that have been interrupted on the heavy blow. The nice part is the skills and kd are timed perfectly with one another. The exact second the target is up to cast, heavy blow is falling on them to interrupt their skill and kd once again. The only thing this build fails against is a 2 monk team, but that's what my other 2 team mates are there for. (disregarding the healer of course).

The really nice part of this combo is that it does kill all targets (except warriors) while they are on their back. Every time. By building your adrenaline on a secondary target, then sprinting to the real target, you can effectively prevent things like guardian being cast to prevent the spike (the trick, obviously is to pick a target that is fairly close to the healer!) This combo damage with SoH active is good for around 500 damage, not counting Irresistable blow.

audioaxes · Feb 24, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxed

The reason for the holy strike is for the extra 80 damage. The whole purpose of this build in 4v4 is to kill the opps monk. Without that 80 damage, it fails to kill.

I don't like frenzy with the build because it acually breaks the chain. It's too fast hit the chain in successive hits, and too slow to get two hits on the kd. It allows for the monk to heal himself, thus no kill.

The combination that you are using is also quite adrenaline heavy, and allows the target to get up for a quick RoF or healing touch heal, thus no kill.

The combination of skills that I am using is easily sustainable for me (even with strength of honor active) and allows for 3 full spike sequences before having energy problems. Normally that amounts to 3 kills. Deadly in 4v4, not so much in 8v8.

I do think this build can be used effectively in 8v8 though. Imagine this:

2 w/m hammer/holy strike warriors
3 ranger spikers
1 necro - order of pain+rend enchant+rigor+ss
2 boon prots

Now when the w/m calls their adrenaline spike, the rangers pick a third target to hit up. Now, in a 2 boon/prot backline, they are both dead and normally the ranger spike should be able to kill off a third (ouch). In a 3 monk backline, the 3rd monk must choose which 2 players are going to die.

mighty blow can hit well over 80 damage on a monk caster
and frenzy is vastly superior to a nonfrenzy hammer war

with frenzy you get to charge you adrenaline faster and throw on a zealous haft for more energy
Im aware that a frenzy 1st knockdown->2 attacks->2nd knockdown opens the window for a smart monk to slip in a rof just before your 2nd knockdown but I still think using frenzy is better. And you always have the flexibility to do a knockdown chain without frenzy.

taxed · Feb 24, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

While I can fully appriciate the benefit of frenzy's IAS, the double damage is a monster downfall. I can't count the number of times I have had to remove frenzy with another stance to avoid death. Getting hit just once with a high damage skill hurts in a big way (I have been nailed for a 250 obsidian just as I was casting frenzy...ouch). I don't find energy enough of a problem to warrant the Zealous haft.

I do know that if I am playing a caster, I watch the warriors for it and make them pay.

I do like the idea of Mighty Blow, I may give it a try though... (just thinking that holy strike is a faster skill, allowing the Irrestable finisher easier if needed). Oh yes, as well on for example a ranger with whirling defense, he gets knocked down, but you can't hit again. Holy strike brings the damage to around 200 with irrestable+HS.

Byron · Feb 24, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxed

While I can fully appriciate the benefit of frenzy's IAS, the double damage is a monster downfall. I can't count the number of times I have had to remove frenzy with another stance to avoid death. Getting hit just once with a high damage skill hurts in a big way (I have been nailed for a 250 obsidian just as I was casting frenzy...ouch).

Yeah, I've seen a couple <100 guilds running E/Mo with wards and obsidian flame, the flame for the purpose of frenzy warriors only. What does this mean? A big hamper for the monks, since they've got 250 damage to heal, a prot spirit to place in order to prevent outright death, and a big distraction from the people that need healing moreso (ie casters and monks themselves). 2 quick obsidians on a frenzy warrior kills that warrior. Air spikers also look for frenzy to get a 5-second kill combo.

Frenzy is an amazing tool, but we're now playing in the trend of warrior hate, so for a warrior who relies on the strength and consistent damage of his attacks, its probably best to use sparingly, if at all. Gale warriors are another story, of course.

Greedy Gus · Feb 24, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Holy strike is sweet until you realize that irresistable blow does more damage.

QuixotesGhost · Feb 24, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

2 things I like about Holy Strike over Mighty Blow.

- It gets through Protective Spirit no problem.

- Against a blocking target you can Irresistable --> Holy Strike for a good ~110-120 damage through the offending enchantment/stance.

Quote:

why not take out holy strike?
energy is at a premium for hammer warriors so mighty blow being addrenaline based works out just fine and its damage can easily exceed that of holy strike on a caster target
it also works out perfectly because your adrenaline is going to drain from heavy so why not cap it off with a final adrenaline hit without it counting against you

now you have a just as deadly spike and get to use frenzy/irresistable more often since you are more energy efficient

16 hammer
13 str

frenzy
sprint
irresistable
devastating
crushing
mighty
heavy
res

devastating->crushing->mighty->heavy->irresistable = dead target from full health

You can also achieve some of the same aims by swapping Sprint for Rush.

Quote:

frenzy is vastly superior to a nonfrenzy hammer war

Whole-heartedly agree.

DieInBasra · Feb 24, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Frenzy is an amazing tool, but we're now playing in the trend of warrior hate, so for a warrior who relies on the strength and consistent damage of his attacks, its probably best to use sparingly, if at all.

If you're going to bring >100 guilds into the discussion, then bring up the fact that they all use frenzy on their wars as well. Warriors also have two very common tools-endure pain and heal sig, both of which counter a situation like you described very easily. Warriors are going to pop sprint up and then hit endure, or just run back an healsig. You also have to realize that frenzy increases damage by 50% so the trade-off is worth it to most people. Take 100% more damage while dealing 50% more damage on my time? Deal.

Quote:

2 quick obsidians on a frenzy warrior kills that warrior. Air spikers also look for frenzy to get a 5-second kill combo.

If a warrior in frenzy for 5 seconds while getting hit by an air ele STAYS in frenzy, he deserves to die.

Byron · Feb 25, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

If you're going to bring >100 guilds into the discussion, then bring up the fact that they all use frenzy on their wars as well. Warriors also have two very common tools-endure pain and heal sig, both of which counter a situation like you described very easily...

Your right of course, and what I'm searching for is a replacement to the very balanced, tried-and-true, tactical W/E gale/frenzy build that every guild seems to run. THey run it with good reason, of course.

I just want to make sure, a typical <100 w/e is built like this, yes?
->2 adn attacks/frenzy/gale/rush/endure pain/heal sig/res sig
Maybe substituting gale for shock(esp in tombs), or an adrenaline attack for a specialty attack(like irresistable blow, savage slash, etc.)

I think there is a better build out there, and W/Mo is my first guess. I'll continue to experiment with builds in the meantime.

Greedy Gus · Feb 25, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I think the problem is that you don't understand why the gale warrior is so effective. It turns the warrior who already has huge damage into a shutdown character. Immobilization shutdown so it serves as a snare. While it's short shutdown, it's absolute, so they can't focus swap, move, cast, etc. And when you add more gale warriors, the shutdown can be chained so it gets all that much better. It also has a very short recharge and can be used at range.

So, you moved from that, then took a basic hammer warrior who is good in their own right, and added one smiting skill that does similar damage to a simple hammer attack, and think it's anywhere near the best warrior setup? Holy strike is the smart man's KD/AS warrior, has been known about forever, and still isn't the best hammer build. And it's supposed to be better than the eviscerate/executioners or sever/gash/final/charge gale warriors?

audioaxes · Feb 25, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

just tested mighty blow on 60 armor dummy with +15%/+20% hammer conditions with 16hammer/13str setup:

average damage: 91.5
highest critical: 124 damage
lowest hit: 67 damage

out of 20 hits only 2 {67, 79} hit below the damage of holy strike and 4 criticals of 120+ damage {122, 122, 122, 124}

So if you want to waste attribute points in an offhand line in smiting for a single inferior skill that wastes energy while you can get a "free hit" in your chain with mighty blow that averages 11 more damage and opens the opportunity of 120+ damage spikes, god bless

Greedy Gus · Feb 25, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Imagine if you were using a vamp hammer instead of a sundering one too